Origin Story - Interview with Susan Butler-Joans

Origin Story – An Interview with Susan Butler-Jones

Susan Butler-Jones is a retired minister of the United Church of Canada. She founded the Prairie jubilee Program in the late 1990s. The following interview has been edited for clarity and length.

[Bob Dueck:] Susan, I thought you would be a great subject to interview for the Prairie Jubilee website because your story would also be an origin story of the Prairie Jubilee Program. I came into the program just after you left and so did not witness your part of it directly. I thought it would be interesting for people who’ve been in Prairie Jubilee since that time to hear something about the origin of the program, something about your own background, and what led you to found the Prairie Jubilee Program. Then also some general impressions about the program and the contribution it’s made to the world. I think it has contributed. I really do.

[Susan Butler-Jones:]  I think so too. I think it’s changing the world, which is what Don Grayston would have said: “We’re out to change the world.”

You’ve been a United Church Minister for a number of years, now retired.

For 41 years now. I was in active ministry for 40 years and retired a year ago.

When I was first in the workplace, I don’t think there were many people who were in the same job for 40 years, but for you, it wasn’t really the same job, because you’ve moved around a fair bit, right?

Oh, yeah. I’ve lost track of how many places I was in ministry. I’ve worked in many churches. I’ve worked in solo ministry and team ministry and I particularly loved team ministry. I love that kind of collegial work. The two things in ministry that were really important to me were working in a team and walking with people as they experienced and were able to name for themselves what their spirituality and faith were about.

My love and my focus was always teaching. I found very early on in my ministry that where I really felt the passion was when, in response to something I was teaching, people would say, “Oh, that’s what God’s like!”, or, “Oh, that’s why we do that in the church!” or, “Oh, that makes sense!” That integrating, that taking it internally, what their faith was about, what their spirituality was about, and then making that link with the body and the spirit and the heart.

How did your early church experiences affect your spiritual development?

I’m born and bred United Church. I loved my church, loved going to church all the time when I was a kid. Especially as a teenager, because the ministers were amazing at giving kids like me the space to do what we wanted, or needed, in order to explore who we were as Christians. I’m very grateful for that. I was put in leadership roles when I was incredibly young, encouraged and offered the space to do that, not just by the ministers, but by the congregation. I had the opportunity to ask, “What does it mean to be a Christian? Who is God in my life?” One thing was lacking, though – in our church, we didn’t talk about Spirit.

My nurturing of the Holy Spirit was by my Roman Catholic friends. I loved to go to Mass when I was a kid. My mom had several friends who were Roman Catholic. These were all single women and when they’d come to visit, they’d go off to Mass and I’d go with them. It was all in Latin, but there was incense and there was chanting, and it just did something to my soul that I didn’t get in the United Church. I had the best of both worlds, but I do remember really getting angry with the United Church for keeping this Holy Spirit thing a secret.

How did that feeling lead to further exploration of Spirit once you had entered the ministry?

When I was living in Barrie, Ontario, I discovered Cedar Glen, a United Church training center north of Toronto. I went there for a day retreat for people in team ministry. While I was there, I found out about these quiet days that they would offer periodically. Basically, it’s a mini silent retreat, which of course, I’d never heard of. Silent retreat – like who’s silent in the United Church?

I went to a couple of those and then I did a three-day retreat. At one of these retreats, the director of Cedar Glen told me about spiritual direction. I said to him, “I’m doing that, I’m coming. I don’t care whether you want me or not, I’m coming.”

My spiritual director had received his training through Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation in Washington, DC. Probably about six months after I started seeing him for spiritual direction, he said to me, “When are you going to go to Shalem and train as a spiritual director?” When I when, what? He saw something in me and called it forth, which I really appreciated.

I really wanted to do this program at Shalem. It was against all odds at that point because I had three young kids and a husband who was very busy and away a lot, plus me doing ministry. It was almost going to be impossible, but we made it work.

I did the Shalem program over 18 months. So, three times to Washington, DC, then all the work in between. I absolutely loved it. I started doing spiritual direction and realized that a lot of the work that I had done in my ministry, the education, and even the preaching, was kind of spiritual-direction based.

The focus on prayer and on silence, stillness, solitude became really, really essential for me. I became known for my exploration of spirituality and people in presbytery started asking, “Can you do some teaching on spirituality in ministry?” I accepted their invitation and the sessions I led promoted a lot of interest in spirituality among my ministry colleagues.

I became familiar with the Ontario Jubilee Program during the time I was in Shalem. I was one of two Canadians in the program and I needed a journey group at home.  Some of the people in my journey group and my peer group were graduates of Ontario Jubilee.

After you finished the program at Shalem, how did you bring that new experience of Spirit into your life and work?

There was a time after I had done the Shalem program that I experienced a dark night of the soul – a spiritual crisis. There was a shift going on in me and I needed a change of direction.

I had gone to a conference and met Alexandra Caverly-Lowery, who was on the leadership team of the Ontario Jubilee program. Alexandra was a dancer and taught dance York University. She was doing some leadership at the conference, mostly about bodywork, breath.

I thought, “This is the woman that I need to be my spiritual director.” I kept phoning her. She didn’t get back to me and I kept phoning. Finally, finally I got hold of her and she said, “Oh, you’re the persistent woman who keeps calling me.”

“Yes.”

“Okay, what is it that you need?”

“I need a spiritual director who I don’t have to speak with. I cannot speak. I cannot. Prayer does not come in words anymore. I need to learn to pray with my body.”

I would drive down to Toronto where she had this connection with a big old Anglican Church, down in the Beaches, where she lived. There was this upper hall, and we would move, we would dance. There was always some kind of reflective time if I needed or wanted it, but she gave me the permission simply to learn how to pray with my body. That was where my real interest in body prayer and body work came alive. I did liturgical dance for a number of years after that, as well.

In 1995, I was about to move to Regina because of my husband’s work. Just before I left for Regina, Alexandra says to me at the end of a spiritual direction session, “I’ve been talking with the leadership of the Ontario and Pacific Jubilee programs and we would like to invite you to create a Prairie Jubilee program out of the Faculty of Theology at the University of Winnipeg.”

I said, “You realize that Regina is 600 kilometers from Winnipeg?”

“Yeah, we know, but we’re in Ontario and Pacific Jubilee is in Vancouver, so you’re our best hope.”

To be asked to do that was astonishing. It was terrifying. It seemed ludicrous and it was delicious and affirming. I really didn’t have anything to go to in Regina and knew that I needed something. So, I said I’d give it a whirl.

The Jubilee leadership had had some preliminary talks with the folks at the Faculty of Theology at the University of Winnipeg. They also had talked to St. Benedict’s near Winnipeg and Jesse Saulteaux Centre, in Beausejour [now the Sandy Saulteaux Spiritual Centre]. It was the Faculty of Theology that showed the most interest. I think Jesse Saulteaux Centre would have loved to have done it but did not have the resources. St. Benedict’s already had a program in place. It was all very tentative.

I didn’t know anybody in Winnipeg at that point. I called up the Dean of the Faculty of theology and said, “I’d like to continue this conversation that was started by these other people.” I had an initial conversation with him, but before things really got off the ground, he left the position. Another Dean came and Paul Campbell became registrar. I started talking to Paul, who felt that U of W could make this happen and told me what they needed from me.

Shortly after I got to Regina, Alexandra put me in touch with Don Grayston at Pacific Jubilee. I said to the leadership team, “I’m delighted to do this, but I need a lot of help. I need to know what’s the guts and the heart of the Jubilee program.” A couple of the people in my peer group in Barrie had been graduates of the Ontario Jubilee program, so I knew lots about it, but I didn’t feel like I was I was grounded enough in it to be able to create a Prairie Jubilee program.

The Jubilee leadership team said, “Come to our national gathering in London, Ontario. Just be there and see how we do things.” I went, watched what they were doing, and asked, “what is it exactly that you’re asking me to do?” They just said, “Make it happen,” which was not that helpful.

So, “Here’s your one-sentence job description.”

Yeah. Don Grayston said to me, “Come to our residencies. If you can get yourself to Vancouver, we’ll put you up in the residence and you can be adjunct staff. Be part of the leadership and see what the Jubilee program is about.” Taking part in the residencies helped me understand the philosophy, the heart and soul of the Pacific Jubilee, in an experiential way.

With that under your belt, what did you need to do to get the Prairie Jubilee Program going?

I still had to find people to work with. I was teaching at the Center for Christian Studies [CCS – a United Church theological school], where I got to know some of the students and leadership folks there. That’s where I started making my connections with people who could possibly be part of part of the leadership team of Prairie Jubilee. That’s how I met Linda Gervais. She had done the CCS program and was well-steeped in the Roman Catholic spiritual traditions. She and I offered the leadership for the first intake of Prairie Jubilee.

Linda and I wanted really wanted to get some men involved in leadership and also encourage more men to take the program – the first intake had been all women. Paul Campbell from U of W was extremely supportive. He came in and taught a couple of seminar sessions. Gordon McDermid, the Dean of Theology, came out and taught at one point. Arthur Walker-Jones did this wonderful day on the idea of the sacred grove that really gave everyone an embodied sense of creation. They were all really helpful, but none of them had the time or the inclination to come on staff. But it was really good to have that male presence.

I got in touch with Rick McCorrister. Rick’s another United Church minister and I had known Rick for a long time. I had a chat with him, and I said, “I think you would be a real asset to the Prairie Jubilee Program. Would you join us on our leadership team?” And he said, after a lot of thought, because Rick is a very thoughtful person, he said yes. Rick, Linda, and I led the Prairie Jubilee Program beginning in the next intake cycle.

After working together for a few cycles, Linda left to go to Africa for a couple of years. Rick and I had wanted to use some Enneagram teachings in the program but did not feel prepared to teach anything significant at that point. We asked Carol Ann Gotch if she’d come on board to provide that expertise. Rick, Carol Ann, and I spent three or four days at Elkhorn Resort at Clear Lake, MB reimagining the program so that it included more Enneagram focus. The three of us taught the program for the next cycle.

What do you think the contribution of the Enneagram teaching is to the program?

The Enneagram is such an amazing tool. It allows us to go deeper and deeper into our own selves and into the relationships we have with each other, both individually and in community. It gives us language and process to do that.

What about the Prairie Jubilee Program are you really proud of?

One thing we put in place was the insistence on a time of integration during each day of the residencies, not just a break time. We wanted to focus on this silent piece; that’s where the Spirit does the work within us. To intentionally take that time of integration during the program days, and then also have an entire day of silence during each residency.

The other piece was the creative project we required for at least one of the themes of each year of the program. There’s a woman who now supports herself as an artist because she was given permission and encouragement in Prairie Jubilee to do this creative piece. Another woman who’d never sewn before created this amazing skirt. The project allowed her to beautifully integrate her own heart and soul through working on this skirt. Other people wrote music or made masks, all kinds of things. I’m in awe of what some of these folks have done and how it served their own deepening of spirit and their ability to offer this ministry.

What would you say to somebody who was considering joining Prairie Jubilee as a student?

Well, my first response would be, YES, DEFINITELY.

I would temper that by asking them a little bit more about what it is they want and to see if this is really a fit. If someone says, I want to deepen my faith, or I want to know more about my own soul, I want to know more about God, I want to deepen my relationship with Spirit, then basically they’re talking Jubilee language.

I would encourage them to definitely to go for it, but this is not work for the faint of heart. This is powerful stuff. Once you start on this, you will be changed, and you will never be able to go back. It is a huge blessing. It takes great courage and love to do it, but the rewards are tremendous. But not to be, you know, don’t be afraid!

You’re going to explore the Enneagram symbol. Simply be open to it. The Enneagram is a soul deepening tool and you will never regret this work.

You will be part of changing the cosmos for the better. You will be part of the heart of God.

Wow! Well, that’s a pretty big invitation!

There you go. It’s true.

I’ve been asking people for just one word to describe Prairie Jubilee. What would you say? One word to describe your experience of it.

For me personally, it was like one of my children, but that’s not what you’re asking.

What’s one word?

I think I would just say “Life”.

L’chaim. [“To life.”]

Yes.

It was it was a delight talking to you.

Same. So, thanks for this and thanks for your time.

All right, my pleasure. Take care.